According to Lee, the demand for “more autonomy” is more prevalent within the movement than is “independence”. Although right wingers do not dominate the movement, they are gaining strength.
Elif GÖRGÜ
İstanbul
Protests which seemed to have paused with the coronavirus pandemic in Hong Kong, the autonomous region of People’s Republic of China, have picked up pace after a new legal regulation was pushed to the fore by the Beijing administration.
The protests which gained mass basis during the summer months of 2019 were, in particular, against the draft legislation “to extradite the criminals for crimes committed outside mainland China to China itself”, and in general, against the Beijing administration’s political intervention in Hong Kong which was incorporated into its central power in 1997.
The last wave of protests began because of the “Security Law” approved by the Chinese government which proscribed “the overthrow of Chinese central government, incitement to revolt, treason, terror and foreign intervention”. Another practise subject to reaction was Hong Kong assembly’s consideration of the legislation which “proscribed the belittling of the Chinese National Anthem”.
We discussed the development of the situation in the streets which have once again become busy alongside development, social and political components of the movement and its direction with Lee Chun-Fung, who describes himself as an “Artist, curator and community activist in Hong Kong”.
According to Lee, the demand for “more autonomy” is more prevalent within the movement than is “independence”. Although right wingers do not dominate the movement, they are gaining strength. And as for the displays of the US and British flags, this stems more from the need for support than it does from ideological preferences. But there are also right-wingers who do this deliberately.
Lee says that “This turned into a tactic for the protesters but a ground for more repression for Beijing. However, in my opinion, many protestors do not consider this, people’s movements are never one hundred percent rational” and also thinks that the movement needs “firstly an ideological discussion” and that the “left” should unite to increase its influence over the movement.
What does the new Chinese security law say? Why is a section of the people of Hong Kong against this regulation?
Beijing’s main objective is to target those who advocate Hong Kong’s independence, as well as those who link up with US government. But at the same time, the law will suppress other oppositional voices, including the leftists, in this undemocratic city.
Many Hong Kong people worry about this law, since Beijing has power to enter Hong Kong directly, and it is a symbol of stronger control of people living in Hong Kong.
Are the protesters against the new law the followers of the previous protest movement before the pandemic?
You may say so. Hong Kong can simply be thought as dividing into the two major parts; the opposition side and the institutional/conservative side, but the new law, in fact, affects more people than the previous one. In the previous movement, many protestors were arrested, it makes it more difficult for them to join the current protests.
Who are the protestors? Which social and political sectors of the Hong Kong society do they represent, and which sector is leading the movement?
Well, scientific research is needed to identify who they are exactly; from my point of view, protesters who are committed in the forefront are mainly young people and students, while those who support the movement come from different social classes.
What was the state of the Hong Kong working class before the movement? Are workers participating the protests? What are their main problems they are fighting for these days?
That is a bit tricky question, the workers are not quite well organized in the movement, and easily influenced by the institutional/conservative side. As they advocate economic stability and better social welfare to the lower class and elderly, the prodemocracy or the opposition side, in contrast, does not discuss this so much. Mostly, their sense of ideology is more liberal economic.
Besides, the economic structure of Hong Kong has a big population in the service industry, i.e. they are non-typical labour, provide non-material work; they may be traditionally understood as the bourgeois class, but in fact they are “workers”.
International media call the protests “prodemocracy movement”. What do you call it?
We must understand “democracy” in the Hong Kong’s context first, it means sometimes the (election) system, or as a political value. Hong Kong’s political system is not fully open; more than half of the people vote for the opposition but only 1/3 of them for the council elections. Many people’s perspective is that gaining more power in the council is important for the reduction of social conflicts in Hong Kong, [and] also for the reduction of social polarization, although I think we should in fact discuss ideology first.
What do you mean by “discuss the ideology first”?
I think we should in fact discuss who the subject of this movement is, who is included in the discourse of “Hong Kongers”, what is the position of proletariat and workers in the movement, how does “democracy” help to improve the situation, etc. The protestors evade discussing this kind of questions.
In photos or videos from the protests, many British and USA flags can be seen. Why is that? Isn’t it a dilemma that some of the protestors ask for imperialist states’ involvement when they say they want to get rid of another one’s hegemony?
I, personally, strongly disagree with flying those flags in the protests. Some of them even advocate US government to send troops to liberate Hong Kong, I think the movement should have more discussion on who should we link with.
But in general, I can understand why they fly those flags. The simple reason is that the protestors think that they are weak, that they need to get support from outside, no matter who. If they don’t like China, if they are powerful (mostly both) then they are an ally. It is such that some protestors think Trump can pressurise China. They do this due to a pragmatic thinking, just want to make use of them, not quite aware about the ideology.
Many of them don’t know that those flags mean taking an imperialist position. Sometimes they say, they are too suffering, Hong Kong is now colonized by imperialist China, so it is better to be colonized by US or even other countries like UK or Japan etc.
For some far-right wing people, they admit their position. They believe in US democracy, but they are not yet the majority at the moment.
In general, that is a complicated question but in Hong Kong, we have very little discussion on it. People think any tactic that can punish China or make it angry is ok.
US government is very interested in what is going on in Hong Kong. They regularly announce their support for the movement. And this is mostly because of their economical/political conflicts with China. Do you think this situation damages the legitimacy of the movement?
Why would you say “legitimacy” of the movement? At the very beginning, it is already difficult to say the ideology of this movement, although we may say, the right-wing (politically and economically) is becoming more and dominant.
I wouldn’t say the original purpose of this movement was to fight for “Hong Kong’s independence”; I think for most people, “higher autonomy” can be accepted, but the problem is, is it also ok for Beijing?
Those factors to do with US, became a tactic for protestors, while, at the same time, a good excuse for Beijing, to increase suppression, but I think many protestors don’t think in this way.. Popular movements are never 100% rational.
Do you think the protests have accomplished their objectives? How do you see the future of the movement and future of the Hong Kong’s political and social life?
I think protestors did not talk much about their aims, but they have the same target: the Chinese government. The conflict between China and Hong Kong will go on, protests won’t stop within a short period, the US will make use of Hong Kong. So, the left should unite and think more about what we could do in the future.
Who is “the left” you mention, and why is not it united?
In my words, “the left” in Hong Kong’s context is those who stand with the proletariat, seeking equality in all senses; politically and economically. Leftists should point out the most serious social problems in Hong Kong, which is social polarization due to neoliberal capitalism, and extend the discussion and social discontent to this aspect as well, not just about “democracy” of Western standards. In Hong Kong, the left is suppressed a lot by the capitalistic structure, as well as the growing right-wing populism, not yet united enough to build up a strong solidarity basis to open up different possibilities.
About my question on the social composition of the protests, Lee Chun-Fung refers me to a piece of research carried out in the Chinese University in Hong Kong, published in August 2019. Some facts from the abstract of the research conducted amongst 6,688 people through 12 surveys are as follows:
The majority of the movement is composed of young people aged between 20 and 30. Their level of education is high, most are educated or are receiving education on university level. Most of the respondents of the surveys describe themselves as “belonging to the middle class”. Particularly in more confrontational protests, the rate of middle-class participants near those who are from lower classes.
Despite exhibiting various political tendencies, “moderate democrats” are the main participants of the protests, followed by those who view themselves as “localists”. Half of those participating the June 2019 protest believe that protests which are “peaceful, rational and do not contain violence” are of no use. Increasingly more participants believe that radical protests have become more influential for the government to take notice of the public opinion. However, the majority of participants think also that radical tactics may alienate the public.
Ceren Sözeri
Yusuf Karadaş
Aras Coşkuntuncel